I did ask because I wanted to know. I just thought they were reasons to come to a different conclusion. Societal and cultural pressures on men aren’t dealt with to the same level as women, and we do leave men to fend for themselves because many men learned a set of behaviors that were tolerated until they weren’t. And that change can feel unfair. I think we can express masculinity in a positive way, allow us to focus on positive character traits and not physical ones.
There was a sentiment that you were hurt by someone who was ENM, and whether that was because you tried ENM and didn’t like it or whatever, it did seem to be tacked onto your perception of women. I just thought I’d try and give another view of it, in the off-chance that you or someone else reading this needed some more perspective.
You didn’t read my comment with an open mind. You asked for my input so you could give me specific things to lecture about.
I am not in an “ethical non monogamous” relationship. I have never been. However I have seen multiple men in long term relationships get strung along because their partner decided they want to leverage dating apps to have a harem. It has always ended up being a slow motion train wreck, that always ends up essentially being akin to cheating plus gaslighting. They always justify it in the same way you are doing.
You are sexist, plain and simple. You are sexist because you hold men and women to completely different standards in a comical way. You just use liberal rhetoric to justify it.
Your mentality is incredibly common. The world is full of assholes justifying shitty behavior under the guise of liberalism. It’s just an updated version of how evangelicals operated in the 80s and 90s. I’m sick of giving this shit a free pass.
Then your issue isn’t with ENM. It’s with men (I should also note that this equally applies to women and nonbinary people, but we’ll ignore them for now) staying in an ENM relationship that they clearly do not want. Why are they staying in that relationship? It’s worth exploring that.
Is it loneliness? Is it dependency? Is it a fear of not being able to find another partner? These are issues that we don’t often explore and try to help in men.
I definitely am sexist, likely in ways I don’t even know. I am working to fix those biases as I encounter them. It is tough, though in this particular situation, I don’t see those biases, so I’m trying not to be inconsiderate. I think I am holding men, women, and non-binary people to the same standard in this case.
But you are directly holding women responsible for ENM relationships when they didn’t really do anything wrong. If a man did the same thing, would you have an issue with it? If you want a harem and tell everyone in the harem about it, what’s the problem?
Sexual exclusivity is not a prerequisite for all relationships. ENM is a relationship based on the concept of sexual and emotional non-exclusivity. That’s the entire basis of ENM. If you disagree, please explain what keeps these men in the relationship that they can’t leave.
Why do you blame women for these relationships? Men and non-binary people are also ENM, but you seem to think it’s exclusively women.
You know you’re wrong because you haven’t bothered asking why those men don’t leave the relationship if they think it’s cheating? If they were cheating, then you would be telling them to leave. But you don’t. Why not? Would you tell a woman to leave a relationship if she were being cheated on?
Seriously, why is it exclusively the woman’s fault and not the man’s? Is the woman holding something in the relationship hostage? Children? Money?
You know you can be on the left without falling into the trap of identity politics. Many (most) of us that consider ourselves leftists also find liberals annoying, and liberalism is not the highest ideal of the left as common notions in the US would have you believe.
Look Trump is a uniquely awful candidate, but why should I be associated with liberals? I’m a Jewish man. In liberal culture sexism towards men is normalized and antisemitism is normalized.
There’s nothing stopping me from just coming up with my own philosophy while treating both liberal and conservative culture with skepticism. While right now that’s gonna be more on the liberal side, I don’t see why I should associate myself with people who normalize toxic behavior towards people of my religion/gender. That’s basically asking to be next on the target list.
I always bring up the ethical non monogamy because it’s the most objectively insane thing. It’s so obviously toxic and unfair. It would soon obviously be considered emotional abuse if genders were reversed. Yet the more liberal someone is, the more they’ll suggest I’m sexist for having an issue with that behavior.
Look, I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I recognize that I do not have all the answers and I think it’s both damaging and a waste of time to bicker about who or what is and isn’t “sexist”.
All I’m saying is that liberalism and the left are not the same thing or even really all that amenable to each other, and identity politics are largely a distraction from more important issues. There’s a whole Wikipedia article that sums up various criticisms of it from a few different perspectives.
You are right, liberals are wrong about a lot of things and easily fall for ploys which only serve to divide us from each other. Choosing not to associate with liberals or to have more nuanced opinions in the face of their bickering does not mean that you have to be conservative or that conservatism is the only other thing left on the table. It’s a false dichotomy.
I get where you’re coming from, but I think you misread my original post. I said more conservative.
Pretend the temperature is 0 degrees outside. The next week, it is thirty degrees warmer. Someone would be 100 percent correct in saying that it’s much warmer today than yesterday. However it would still be objectively cold.
That is what I am saying. I’m not conservative, but I am more conservative. I don’t see myself belonging to either group.
I also live in a liberal area of the country. I don’t really have to worry about running into someone who says homosexuality is a sin or a woman who isn’t white and pure on her wedding day is a whore. On the other hand I do run into women blatantly hate men or will leverage tolerance rhetoric to gaslight and cheat on their partners.
I did ask because I wanted to know. I just thought they were reasons to come to a different conclusion. Societal and cultural pressures on men aren’t dealt with to the same level as women, and we do leave men to fend for themselves because many men learned a set of behaviors that were tolerated until they weren’t. And that change can feel unfair. I think we can express masculinity in a positive way, allow us to focus on positive character traits and not physical ones.
There was a sentiment that you were hurt by someone who was ENM, and whether that was because you tried ENM and didn’t like it or whatever, it did seem to be tacked onto your perception of women. I just thought I’d try and give another view of it, in the off-chance that you or someone else reading this needed some more perspective.
You didn’t read my comment with an open mind. You asked for my input so you could give me specific things to lecture about.
I am not in an “ethical non monogamous” relationship. I have never been. However I have seen multiple men in long term relationships get strung along because their partner decided they want to leverage dating apps to have a harem. It has always ended up being a slow motion train wreck, that always ends up essentially being akin to cheating plus gaslighting. They always justify it in the same way you are doing.
You are sexist, plain and simple. You are sexist because you hold men and women to completely different standards in a comical way. You just use liberal rhetoric to justify it.
Your mentality is incredibly common. The world is full of assholes justifying shitty behavior under the guise of liberalism. It’s just an updated version of how evangelicals operated in the 80s and 90s. I’m sick of giving this shit a free pass.
Then your issue isn’t with ENM. It’s with men (I should also note that this equally applies to women and nonbinary people, but we’ll ignore them for now) staying in an ENM relationship that they clearly do not want. Why are they staying in that relationship? It’s worth exploring that.
Is it loneliness? Is it dependency? Is it a fear of not being able to find another partner? These are issues that we don’t often explore and try to help in men.
I definitely am sexist, likely in ways I don’t even know. I am working to fix those biases as I encounter them. It is tough, though in this particular situation, I don’t see those biases, so I’m trying not to be inconsiderate. I think I am holding men, women, and non-binary people to the same standard in this case.
But you are directly holding women responsible for ENM relationships when they didn’t really do anything wrong. If a man did the same thing, would you have an issue with it? If you want a harem and tell everyone in the harem about it, what’s the problem?
You’re literally making excuses for women cheating on and gaslighting men. Bullshit you’d be behaving the same way of genders are reversed.
Sexual exclusivity is not a prerequisite for all relationships. ENM is a relationship based on the concept of sexual and emotional non-exclusivity. That’s the entire basis of ENM. If you disagree, please explain what keeps these men in the relationship that they can’t leave.
Why do you blame women for these relationships? Men and non-binary people are also ENM, but you seem to think it’s exclusively women.
You know you’re wrong because you haven’t bothered asking why those men don’t leave the relationship if they think it’s cheating? If they were cheating, then you would be telling them to leave. But you don’t. Why not? Would you tell a woman to leave a relationship if she were being cheated on?
Seriously, why is it exclusively the woman’s fault and not the man’s? Is the woman holding something in the relationship hostage? Children? Money?
Have you ever been in a relationship? Any relationship? Doesn’t look like it.
You know you can be on the left without falling into the trap of identity politics. Many (most) of us that consider ourselves leftists also find liberals annoying, and liberalism is not the highest ideal of the left as common notions in the US would have you believe.
Look Trump is a uniquely awful candidate, but why should I be associated with liberals? I’m a Jewish man. In liberal culture sexism towards men is normalized and antisemitism is normalized.
There’s nothing stopping me from just coming up with my own philosophy while treating both liberal and conservative culture with skepticism. While right now that’s gonna be more on the liberal side, I don’t see why I should associate myself with people who normalize toxic behavior towards people of my religion/gender. That’s basically asking to be next on the target list.
I always bring up the ethical non monogamy because it’s the most objectively insane thing. It’s so obviously toxic and unfair. It would soon obviously be considered emotional abuse if genders were reversed. Yet the more liberal someone is, the more they’ll suggest I’m sexist for having an issue with that behavior.
Look, I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I recognize that I do not have all the answers and I think it’s both damaging and a waste of time to bicker about who or what is and isn’t “sexist”.
All I’m saying is that liberalism and the left are not the same thing or even really all that amenable to each other, and identity politics are largely a distraction from more important issues. There’s a whole Wikipedia article that sums up various criticisms of it from a few different perspectives.
You are right, liberals are wrong about a lot of things and easily fall for ploys which only serve to divide us from each other. Choosing not to associate with liberals or to have more nuanced opinions in the face of their bickering does not mean that you have to be conservative or that conservatism is the only other thing left on the table. It’s a false dichotomy.
I get where you’re coming from, but I think you misread my original post. I said more conservative.
Pretend the temperature is 0 degrees outside. The next week, it is thirty degrees warmer. Someone would be 100 percent correct in saying that it’s much warmer today than yesterday. However it would still be objectively cold.
That is what I am saying. I’m not conservative, but I am more conservative. I don’t see myself belonging to either group.
I also live in a liberal area of the country. I don’t really have to worry about running into someone who says homosexuality is a sin or a woman who isn’t white and pure on her wedding day is a whore. On the other hand I do run into women blatantly hate men or will leverage tolerance rhetoric to gaslight and cheat on their partners.