Ok we won’t get Crimea. But no negotiatians until we get back to 2022 borders.
Ok we won’t get back to 2022 borders. But no negotiations until someone makes Putin negotiate with me (???).
Turning Ukrainians into slaves who cannot leave the country are kidnapped off the streets and sent to die the most horrible deaths in the meatgrinder? Yes that’s totally legal and absolutely moral, why are you even asking?
Making peace with Russia by admitting you lost the war to save hundreds of thousands of lives? That’s like the most illegal and horrible thing ever.
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything?
Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.
Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about
Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)
almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
Lol, really?
Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /s
beating - well that goes without saying when you are kidnapping someone, it’s hard to do that without beating, but if that gets you off - you can find something here https://uadraftmuseum.ch/incidents
Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.
If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example?
The answer to these questions is obvious given that whatever deal Ukraine ends up with is going to be strictly worse than it would’ve been at the start of the war. All Zelensky accomplished was to destroy his country, and to ensure that millions of people died or had their lives ruined to achieve a worse long term outcome for Ukraine.
The answer is obvious, there was no scenario where Ukraine could have won the war. The only possible thing that could’ve happened was precisely what we see happening. Pretty much anybody with even a minimal understanding of the situation understood this before the war started. Here’s how Obama put it back in 2016
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale. Every time Russia retreated, mass graves and torture cbambers were found.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done. The west could have equipped those poeple. The west could have trained those people. In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted, if they were properly equipped and trained. It’s in the west’s power to do that. They just don’t want to. Also, you just conveniently ignore the absolutely horrific losses the Russians are having with theirmeat wave assaults. But I guess in your world view, Zelensky is responsible for that too.
If you can’t even read the first two paragraphs of your own source
Mediazona, in collaboration with BBC News Russian service and a team of volunteers, maintains a named list of deceased Russian military personnel. This list is compiled from verified, publicly available sources, including social media posts by family members, local news reports, and official announcements from regional authorities. This list is not exhaustive, as not every military death becomes public knowledge.
To provide a more comprehensive picture of the war’s impact, we offer a second figure: an estimate of excess mortality among men, based on Probate registry data. This method was developed in collaboration with Meduza, to address the limitations of relying solely on publicly reported deaths.
Yeah, these are estimates based on actual evidence, as opposed to made up numbers. It’s not exhaustive, but it gives a realistic idea of the scale of casualties. Meanwhile, there is zero evidence for any kinds of meat waves. There’s not a single video of that happening from the past 3 years of the war. It’s a narrative that only the most gullible people could believe. The reality is that this is a war of attrition where vast majority of casualties come from artillery and Russia enjoys a 10x artillery advantage.
There was a video posted literally a week ago of north koreans ‘rushing’ a Ukrainian stronghold and getting demolished out in the open. We have multiple, as in more than a dozen, statements by Russian personell, that their squads are suffering up to 90% losses. Bakhmut alone cost over 30.000 Russian lives.
There’s been claims of north Koreans captured here, spotted attacking there, giving an interview in Russian uniform, and yet not a single piece of evidence has ever been provided. If the state department said tomorrow that Bigfoot had been spotted in Donbas and was fighting for Russia half of you would be here repeating it as incontrovertible fact since there’s all that evidence.
The Commission previously found that Russian authorities had committed torture in
seven provinces of Ukraine and in the Russian Federation. 32 It has continued to gather
evidence of widespread and systematic use of torture by Russian authorities, in both Ukraine
and the Russian Federation.
Continue, you only have several more claims that aren’t cited. For example, the use of language “industrial scale” for torture.
Also please keep in mind that this isn’t a high standard of evidence, as UN reports often are influenced- such as the significant citations of the German fascist Adrien Zenz in some of their reporting on China.
Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between ‘industrial scale’ and ‘systematic and widespread’ is. Not enough conveyor belts and smokestacks?
Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.
Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.
Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between ‘industrial scale’ and ‘systematic and widespread’ is.
Literally the difference between the holocaust and a pogrom.
Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.
A lack of institutional credibility and an unwillingness to read a 20 page report that references things that have already been debunked- for example, i took a vertical slice to dig into, looking in detail about their claims of abducted children that do not align with the reality of later western-biased reporting on the issue.
Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.
He describes himself as a “Christian Nationalist” and “on a God given mission to destroy China” and his institute used to be a cia front (arguably still is, although it has now been obscured through another front organization) If he isn’t a fascist, he is close enough to the picture that he still isn’t credible.
Bucha has high likelihood of being black flag/theater propaganda. It’s not like Israel denying they committed the first gaza hospital for 2 day media blitz, and then destroying all of the other ones. You can’t trust Ukrainian PR because it is entirely a fundraising campaign.
Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.
So you want to sell me one incident that is acknowledged and is being investigated as a gotcha to discredit the systematic and widespread torture the Russian state is employing? You really are dense.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
And again, you want to sell me one incident that is being investigated as a gotcha to the illegal and widespread use of tear gas by Russia in this war? Not beating my accusation there, you are.
Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I’m dense… That’s what happens every single day, it’s in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky’s regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That’s a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?
Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple “to the last Ukrainian” kind of thing :/
Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted.
What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.
There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.
Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted.
Ah, so if he’s not doing the atrocities personally then it’s all ok? Gotcha :)
What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.
I hope you aren’t implying that Zelensky is a victim? For him this war is literally the best thing that could ever happen to him - he gets to rule the xountry for as long as he wish, reveives billions from the west, travels around thr world telling stories about how hr protects the democracy, etc. The victims are Ukrainians whom he (well, his rehime if you want to differentiate those things for some reason…) confines, kidnaps, tortures and murders.
There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.
Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?
Well since I said “you” and you aren’t the entire population of Ukraine (I assume, but maybe you do in fact contain multitudes) I don’t see how this is relevant at all!
He’s losing it because his western sponsors won’t let him negotiate a peace deal (that the majority OF HIS COUNTRY wants, regardless of what armchair chicken hawks think they should do). If he had tried at any point, he would have gotten deposed (or worse) like they deposed Yanukovich in 2014.
Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.
Please tell me more about this analogy of yours.
He is a sadistic clown because he turned country into a mass prison where he kidnaps people off the streets, beats them and send them to the meatgrinder to die. And those who don’t like it are literally tortured. All while you cheer his efforts.
Until somehow the world order changes and states dissolve into something else, drafts are a fact of life. One of the prices you pay for having a state provide you with stable infrastructure, transportation, fire, medical, law enforcement, property rights, etc. etc. is the possibility that one day you may be called upon to defend that state.
Your beef is with the systems we have, not Zelensky in particular.
The sadistic clown gets more and more pathetic…
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
Sounds like whatsboutism. What time is it in Moscow?
Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.
Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)
I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!
Literally never said that, ok :)
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
Lol, really?
Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /s
Nice work cherry picking the single item on the list that doesn’t fit, you sure aren’t beating the allegations today!
Ah, so you meant
So here is about kidnappings, there is now a first hand source now actually: https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html
beating - well that goes without saying when you are kidnapping someone, it’s hard to do that without beating, but if that gets you off - you can find something here https://uadraftmuseum.ch/incidents
some stories about holding people in the basements: https://goloskarpat.info/society/66f2bfed03425/ https://informator.ua/uk/tck-husta-utrimuye-turistiv-iz-bronyuvannyam-u-zhahliviy-pidzemniy-tyurmi-spovid-chinovnika-z-dnipra
and to make sure to get you off, here is about gasing and trying to set people’s vehicle on fire: https://unn.ua/en/news/they-tried-to-smoke-out-a-man-and-gassed-the-car-a-scandalous-video-of-the-tccs-actions-near-kyiv-has-appeared-online and one about literally tortures: https://news.novyny.live/en/u-genshtabi-vidreaguvali-na-pogrozi-ta-nasilstvo-u-211-i-brigadi-219974.html
Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.
The answer to these questions is obvious given that whatever deal Ukraine ends up with is going to be strictly worse than it would’ve been at the start of the war. All Zelensky accomplished was to destroy his country, and to ensure that millions of people died or had their lives ruined to achieve a worse long term outcome for Ukraine.
The answer to those questions (surrender at oustset ￫ what injustice, what harms) is not obvious, please spell it out.
The answer is obvious, there was no scenario where Ukraine could have won the war. The only possible thing that could’ve happened was precisely what we see happening. Pretty much anybody with even a minimal understanding of the situation understood this before the war started. Here’s how Obama put it back in 2016
I don’t consider him a ‘sadistic clown,’ but I do see your point.
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale. Every time Russia retreated, mass graves and torture cbambers were found.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done. The west could have equipped those poeple. The west could have trained those people. In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted, if they were properly equipped and trained. It’s in the west’s power to do that. They just don’t want to. Also, you just conveniently ignore the absolutely horrific losses the Russians are having with theirmeat wave assaults. But I guess in your world view, Zelensky is responsible for that too.
One has to be an utterly gullible racist to believe in the meat wave assaults narrative https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng-trl
If you can’t even read the first two paragraphs of your own source
Yeah, these are estimates based on actual evidence, as opposed to made up numbers. It’s not exhaustive, but it gives a realistic idea of the scale of casualties. Meanwhile, there is zero evidence for any kinds of meat waves. There’s not a single video of that happening from the past 3 years of the war. It’s a narrative that only the most gullible people could believe. The reality is that this is a war of attrition where vast majority of casualties come from artillery and Russia enjoys a 10x artillery advantage.
Rehashing literal WW2 Nazi propaganda bc libs haven’t even gotten past that myth
funny how many views libs and nazis share
There was a video posted literally a week ago of north koreans ‘rushing’ a Ukrainian stronghold and getting demolished out in the open. We have multiple, as in more than a dozen, statements by Russian personell, that their squads are suffering up to 90% losses. Bakhmut alone cost over 30.000 Russian lives.
There’s been claims of north Koreans captured here, spotted attacking there, giving an interview in Russian uniform, and yet not a single piece of evidence has ever been provided. If the state department said tomorrow that Bigfoot had been spotted in Donbas and was fighting for Russia half of you would be here repeating it as incontrovertible fact since there’s all that evidence.
Let’s this video of north Koreans 😂
[citation needed]
Bakhmut was likely the costliest battle of the war for Russia, however as you look at the casualties it’s clear they’ve been steadily going down https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng-trl
Serious citations needed. Please do not spread atrocity propaganda in this comm.
How about UN reports? You can find them by simply googling.
I’ve found no UN reports detailing activities such as those on an industrial scale. Please cite the UN reports.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/a-hrc-55-66-aev.pdf
2.58.
Literally the first report I opened.
Continue, you only have several more claims that aren’t cited. For example, the use of language “industrial scale” for torture.
Also please keep in mind that this isn’t a high standard of evidence, as UN reports often are influenced- such as the significant citations of the German fascist Adrien Zenz in some of their reporting on China.
Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between ‘industrial scale’ and ‘systematic and widespread’ is. Not enough conveyor belts and smokestacks?
Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.
Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.
Literally the difference between the holocaust and a pogrom.
A lack of institutional credibility and an unwillingness to read a 20 page report that references things that have already been debunked- for example, i took a vertical slice to dig into, looking in detail about their claims of abducted children that do not align with the reality of later western-biased reporting on the issue.
He describes himself as a “Christian Nationalist” and “on a God given mission to destroy China” and his institute used to be a cia front (arguably still is, although it has now been obscured through another front organization) If he isn’t a fascist, he is close enough to the picture that he still isn’t credible.
Bucha has high likelihood of being black flag/theater propaganda. It’s not like Israel denying they committed the first gaza hospital for 2 day media blitz, and then destroying all of the other ones. You can’t trust Ukrainian PR because it is entirely a fundraising campaign.
Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
I know I know, all of us would gladly die for your interests, and those of us who wouldn’t are Russian agents.
So you want to sell me one incident that is acknowledged and is being investigated as a gotcha to discredit the systematic and widespread torture the Russian state is employing? You really are dense.
And again, you want to sell me one incident that is being investigated as a gotcha to the illegal and widespread use of tear gas by Russia in this war? Not beating my accusation there, you are.
Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I’m dense… That’s what happens every single day, it’s in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky’s regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That’s a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?
How about enough for a UN report on torture like for Russia you clown?
Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple “to the last Ukrainian” kind of thing :/
Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted. What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.
There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.
Ah, so if he’s not doing the atrocities personally then it’s all ok? Gotcha :)
I hope you aren’t implying that Zelensky is a victim? For him this war is literally the best thing that could ever happen to him - he gets to rule the xountry for as long as he wish, reveives billions from the west, travels around thr world telling stories about how hr protects the democracy, etc. The victims are Ukrainians whom he (well, his rehime if you want to differentiate those things for some reason…) confines, kidnaps, tortures and murders.
So?
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for
everyoneRussia.They’re not leaving until NATO and Ukraine abandons NATO membership, but they are leaving as soon as they do. Why fight for that purpose?
Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?
Well since I said “you” and you aren’t the entire population of Ukraine (I assume, but maybe you do in fact contain multitudes) I don’t see how this is relevant at all!
I… are you accusing him of losing the war because he enjoys it?
He’s losing it because his western sponsors won’t let him negotiate a peace deal (that the majority OF HIS COUNTRY wants, regardless of what armchair chicken hawks think they should do). If he had tried at any point, he would have gotten deposed (or worse) like they deposed Yanukovich in 2014.
Latest is that no one should negotiate with Russia but him, while also getting immediate NATO and EU membership.
Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.
Please tell me more about this analogy of yours.
He is a sadistic clown because he turned country into a mass prison where he kidnaps people off the streets, beats them and send them to the meatgrinder to die. And those who don’t like it are literally tortured. All while you cheer his efforts.
Until somehow the world order changes and states dissolve into something else, drafts are a fact of life. One of the prices you pay for having a state provide you with stable infrastructure, transportation, fire, medical, law enforcement, property rights, etc. etc. is the possibility that one day you may be called upon to defend that state.
Your beef is with the systems we have, not Zelensky in particular.
No, my “beef” is with Zelensky in particular, he is the one who actively tries to exterminate me and every other Ukrainian.
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go home NAFO