Who’s the cheap one in this equation?
… the customer who is paying the owner of the restaurant for the food AND is obligated by social convention to pay extra to the waiter who is underpaid.
or
… the restaurant owner who doesn’t mind living in a world where we have normalized underpaying restaurant workers to the point where we pass down that responsibility to the customer who is already paying for the food.
Pay your workers a proper wage and get rid of the idea of tipping.
Don’t like tipping? Protest the policies by not going to restaurants, dont shove it on the workers who are stuck in the system.
The owner is 100% happy you came to pay him and not the waiter he didnt wanna pay anyway.
How does this form of protest translate into a change of the tipping system?
Yeah this protest only works if there are also another set of restaurants that specifically tell you not to tip that you can give business to. I have been to some but they are very rare where I live.
Or just don’t go to restaurants. There are other ways of getting food.
At this point youre just being disingenuous. There’s a thousand comments in this thread answering that question, and explaining why stiffing the workers doesn’t really affect the owners, or incentivise them to change anything.
If no one is going there and they don’t know why, and they’re losing money because they’re not getting enough business, they’re not going to decide the solution is to start paying their waiters more. That will just cause them to close down sooner.
Also, just as they don’t know why people stopped going there unless every single one calls them and makes it clear it’s due to tipping/wages, the people protesting aren’t going to know even if they do start paying the waiters more.
Almost every waiter I’ve ever spoken to also prefers tipping because they make more than if they were being paid more, because the business isn’t going to pay them as high as they were making in tips (on average).
The only way they even could, is if they raised the price of everything by 25%. As much as people say they’d be fine with that, such high prices would drive some number of people away. There’s also the issue that if the business owner realised people would pay that much higher, they’d inevitably keep some for themselves and only somewhat increase server wages.
This isn’t to say that I think avoiding tipping is the way to fix it either, just that I don’t think it’s as clear cut as just avoiding the business.
Honestly, in these debates more often than not I find that the waiters don’t want tipping culture changed either. A lot (not all, I understand) of waiters make bank on tips and then don’t accurately report them as income so it’s not even taxed correctly. They don’t want that to change.
I don’t give a shit what the waiter wants honestly, I shouldn’t have to pay the owner and the worker separately
Fuck that, there’s federal mandated minimum wage if waiters don’t make enough through tips. You’re a misinformation spreading lunatic. Probably right wing too.
I have no problem with tipping, I have a problem with expected tipping.
Waiters should be paid properly and tips should not be expected or even mentioned. If I get exceptional service, I may want to leave a tip. There should be an optional tip section when paying the bill, but no separate screen or list of expected tips (or even percentage calculations) anywhere at all.
Tipping is fine, but as in “keep the change”, not “we need to change this tipping culture”
The owner is evil, but anyone who doesn’t tip a waiter that earns too little to be able to afford to live is an asshole.
As someone who works in the service industry, this is the argument that I see all the time. “We aren’t going to subsidize your wage because your owner is an asshole.” Weird, you have no problem being a patron of his establishment. Do you think that your refusal to tip somehow hurts him? Because it doesn’t. It only hurts the staff. My argument always has and always will be that we increase the cost of menu items by 18% and then split that additional 18% with the staff. However, that idea always falls flat with the owner because, “We’ll be the most expensive restaurant in town. No one will come here.” Which is a valid concern. And so, we are at an impasse. He can’t afford to pay me what I’m worth, and he can’t increase the cost of the menu or he’ll outprice his customers, and I can’t quit because it’s not better at any other restaurant. In the end, in any direction, the customer is going to pay more, either as a tip, or just for the cost of the food, or they’ll pay with worse service because the experienced staff can’t afford to work there anymore. Refusing to tip isn’t a protest, it’s just being cheap and making yourself feel better about it. If tipping went away, prices would have to increase, and either way, the buck stops with the consumer. Want to eat cheaper? Cook at home. I’m sure you’ll be just as good as any of your favorite restaurants with their specialized equipment and cooks with a decade of experience.
I hope all you downvoters have something of value to contribute… Oh, no, you’re just downvoting to show your solidarity with the rest of the cheap-os? Ok, enjoy your meal.
So… If i read this correctly… The net difference is zero? Except when I’m being an asshole and I dont tip.
So in the end, this boils down to offering the option of being an asshole to your customers.
As an european I always find this discussion weird. And when visiting stateside I never really can “gauge” what I should tip. Am i in a joint which underpays the server? Is (s)he fine? Is 10% enough? More? Should i just make it whole? I just never know. I sometimes even have resorted to just bluntly ask the server or a patron what is customary. (my weird accent helps getting an honest answer)
It’s quite honestly a shit fest. There is an amount on the billl… But that isnt the real amount, except when you’re an asshole. And if you over tip you’re still an asshole, just a stupid one, and if you’re undertip you’re also an asshole.
Come to think about it: it really boils down to which kind of asshole do you want to be.
It’s a VAT, but it’s a choose your own VAT, and it’s based on what the service is worth to you. The customary amount is 20%, but a lot of people go between 15% and 20%, with my average take home being around 13% because of the people that don’t tip. So, choose your VAT. In the end, when adjusted for the cost of living, eating out in the EU is about the same as eating out in the US and adding a tip. The tip is just already included in the meal cost. If we could all agree to do that in the US, then it would be fine, but we can’t, so it isn’t done. It’s part of the establishment at this point, and change is something hard to sort out across 330 Million people all at once.
Only thing that stands out to me is the percentages you’ve listed. I was always taught (and most of my peers seem to have been as well) that the normal tip for average service was 15%. Poor service (that is in the waiter’s control) gets 10%, and good/great is 18-22% (but usually 20%).
I was born in the early 90s if it makes a difference.
It used to be that way, but now standard is 20%.
I was also taught that egregious service (like bigoted remarks from the waitstaff or getting told to go fuck yourself) gets 1¢ to assure you aren’t just someone who doesn’t tip
Here’s the equation. Restaurants keep food costs low by paying servers next to nothing. If they paid them what they deserve, the cost of your meal would increase.
So by not tipping, you are benefiting from the low cost of food while screwing over the person that has no control over the situation. YTA
If you don’t want to tip, don’t go to a restaurant that has servers.
Now, other places that actually pay a living wage and also have a tip button (ie concession stands at a sporting event) can get fucked.
Are you suggesting that food prices will go up by more than the cost of the tip tacked on?
Because if not it’s really just more honest pricing, and the same (or reduced) impact on customers, but without having to do math or having the option of being a leech.
If tipping ended and restaurants paid their servers, food prices would go up. That is undeniable.
You are eating at a discount with the expectation that you will pay the owner’s employee for them. Yes, it is unfair and sucks but the one making out like a bandit here is the owner.
So, not tipping is your way of benefiting personally on a discounted meal AND STILL giving the owner money. And the only one you have punished in your equation is a server (the leech???) who is generally living off that tip day to day.
So if you want to make an impact, quit going to restaurants that have tipping as an expectation! That’s it! Otherwise you are just encouraging the owner to keep the status quo!
It’s not a discount if you are expected to pay more to add a tip.
But dude, quit changing the subject, I’m not talking about people not tipping within the current system, never have been, and neither was the person you originally replied to. I’ve worked tipped positions, so I very much understand how they work.
So again, are you suggesting that if we do away with tipping, costs of food would increase by MORE than the present amount of a tip that gets tacked on? Because that’s the only way prices for the end consumer actually meaningfully raise. Most likely they will actually go down overall. Because again you have to pay the tip too.
You are really bad at reading comprehension btw. That, or you are a piss-poor troll and intentionally misrepresenting literally everything… the option to be a leech is the customer, who in the present system can skip the tip. Like a leech.
Also, there aren’t any restaurants around me that scrapped tipping, not a single fucking one within at least an hour of where I live, so your suggestion is impossible for me and very privileged.
Except that I’m fine if the cost of my meal increases if they paid their servers what they deserve.
Honestly if you think about it. The cost of your meal going up and the cost of tipping are not different in their end result for the consumer.
The employee still gets the short end because people won’t always tip. Or even show up.
The owner gets the long (?) end because they don’t have to pay their workers a higher wage (very bad if it’s a slow day) and the customers who otherwise wouldn’t have eaten there if the prices were high will still eat there and not tip.
So it really doesn’t effect the consumer at all but it does effect the employee quite a bit for sure.
Same here. I’m just saying don’t protest tipping by not tipping. You’re screwing the wrong person.
I don’t tip as well. But I live in a civilised country where everyone gets at least a tolerable minimum wage. No one is paying me extra money just for doing my job. So I won’t either. If they want more, they need to talk to their employer. It’s not my responsibility.
Would I live in the United States of Idiots though, where a severe lack of ethical economic behaviour is observable, I indeed would tip the waiters, as that’s sadly their financial lifeline.
-Anon comes from cuntry half the size of average American state.
-Anon fails to realize the ezy button ruling a nation of 3rd cousins.
Tipping is bullshit. Restaurants should pay their workers properly. But I’m not gonna punish the server for that. She has zero control over that.
If I can’t afford to tip then I just don’t go to the restaurant. People would prefer to make up excuses for why they don’t wanna tip and how that doesn’t make them an asshole while taking huge huffs of their own farts. If you don’t like the tipping culture just go to a fast food restaurant or make your own food. Why is everybody such whiney bitches about everything?
So you hate the tipping culture but also hate people who want it abolished. That’s just beyond stupid.
Like not tipping is going to abolish anything. You walk in, pay the owner and leave the worker hanging. Why would the owner care?
It’s not like all the waiters can stay home waiting for something to change, people gotta live. Stop going to restaurants if you don’t want to tip
To be fair, that’s not the actual alternative for the waiter. The waiter either accepts their income as it is with some people not providing a tip, or they can opt for other employment like the rest of the workforce that isn’t tipped. They don’t have to sit at home waiting for things to change like helpless puppies.
I’m in California though so we don’t have any of that wage fuckery where they can be paid less than minimum wage if tips make up a significant portion of their income. It’s $17.55 hour minimum plus tips where I’m at.
I’d really rather see tipping outlawed along with all other obscured fees and just pay what you need to pay to have waiters and charge what you need to charge to have a business transparently printed on the menu.
Ahh yes other employment! How come nobody ever thought of that… Just get another job of course. Taxi driver don’t like their wage? Why dont they change jobs. Improper ppe? Just quit. Minimum wage at mcdonalds not livable? Change jobs bro. Bad / dangerous working conditions? You know it… Change jobs! Why do we even bother with oversight like OSHA when all construction workers need is to change jobs when things arent properly done. Contractors will figure it out eventually! California should do away with their pesky wage rules,“to be fair” they aren’t necessary, workers won’t be sitting at home waiting for it.
It’s so ridiculous of an answer ill go back to arguing with those who think they shouldn’t tip. We’d all prefer to see it outlawed.
It boggles the mind how someone can dismiss the legislation that enables the exact scenario the person they replied to described. Yes, the best solution is to have a reasonable minimum wage that isn’t modified by tips. Then you don’t have to leave your job, because they have to follow the law.
…or did you not bother reading past the first sentence?
because they have to follow the law.
lol I admire your idealism.
Drag never tips while eating out.
Drag also lives in a country with a livable minimum wage and no tipping culture.
where does drag live?
A small Asian country
Well yeah, if you live in a country where they make a decent amount so that tipping isn’t necessary for them to be able to eat that day then of course you shouldn’t have to tip. That’s the way it should be everywhere. But in many countries like the US this isn’t the case, and tipping has been used as a way for restaurants to pay next to nothing to employ people and the servers are at the mercy of kindness from the people serving them. Lots of these people think that they should just be slaves that serve them for free and justify it by blaming the restaurant, which is just shifting responsibility and making weak excuses for being entitled and cheap.
Drag remembers being a pre-teen with little understanding of the world, and going onto internet forums. Drag would sometimes take advice from Americans, who felt very strongly about what they were saying, and then get in trouble because that’s not how we do things here. The Americans didn’t clarify their advice was only for Americans. And drag was just a kid, so drag didn’t know any better. It’s not like drag made an account and commented, drag was just reading what a bunch of supposedly wise adults had to say about life and the world.
No one should really defend tipping. It literally has classist history that was updated from that to a racist history and criminal history.
I don’t think you can’t pay extra to someone because you liked them or what they did for you. We have whole holidays for gifts but man if people knew the history of tipping and why Europe picked up Americans anti tipping policy once upon a time I think we could move past it.
Replace waiter with “CEO” and you begin to understand why socialists believe what they do
They missed a step. "Waiter is paid below the already sad minimum wage because tips are somehow factored into their paycheck. "
Also don’t forget the folks working in the back of the house. Tip if you’re able, despite our shitty system.
If you don’t like paying for service don’t go out. This is the way that it is and these are likely the guests that then get on Yelp and complain…about service. You can adjust minimum wage all you want but professional waitstaff aren’t going to pander to the wealthy for minimum wage. Minimum wage service sucks as it should, you get what you pay for; minimum wage, minimum effort. If you don’t like the system, change it, don’t victimize your fellow workers. They accepted the job under this current system. I’m in that system and am working to change it but until then if you don’t tip due to your high moral standards YTA. And it’s not because USians are stoopid (we are), it’s just the ingrained culture. Under capitalism the guest will be paying this money regardless. Much like this fauxmockracy, your choice is an illusion…
“If you don’t tip don’t go out”? Telling people who want to see the tipping culture removed to not go out means that either way, the waiter doesn’t get tipped. Europe has restaurants, so clearly tipping or not tipping doesn’t dictate the existence of restaurants.
If a waiter works an entire shift and receives no tip, they are entitled to actual minimum wage instead of the reduced minimum wage. So there shouldn’t be any moral misgiving to not tipping, it’s just social pressure.
When we stop making money we’ll quit. And then there won’t be restaurants since they can barely staff them as it is. Getting ‘waited on’ by another human being is degrading to them and expensive for you. Tough tits for everyone if they don’t want to cough up. We’ll be getting paid or your service will suck. That’s how it is. Or cook and clean for yourselves. And no minimum wage in this damned country is a living wage.
Doesn’t get paid properly to deliver a service you’re relying on.
Tipping culture is stupid, but that doesn’t mean you get to fuck over workers by refusing the tips they rely on. If you want to fight that fight, take it up with the business or your legislator, ya cheap asshole.
Ayup. I live in a non-tipping country, but in the US, well…
- the farmer doesn’t deal with the customer
- the logistics company doesn’t deal with the customer
- the inspector doesn’t deal with the customer
- the manager doesn’t deal with the customer
- the cook doesn’t deal with the customer
It’s an arsehole tax
If you don’t think restaurant managers deal with customers than all I can say is I’m so happy for you for never having to work in that industry lol. All of the other people you named also have customers they deal with except maybe the cook. Logistics company is the farmer’s customer, restaurant owner is logistics company’s customer, etc. All of said customers can also be arseholes.
Managers mostly placate and throw their waitstaff under the bus.
And no, logistics companies do not deal with the restaurant patron, the fuck are you on
I didn’t say restaurant patron. Usually there is an employee or even the owner (what i said in my previous reply - not patron) of a restaurant that has to order and receive ingredients and other equipment to run the business. Suppliers also have employees that negotiate and coordinate deliveries with these restaurant staff. In this specific situation, the restaurant managers/owners are the customers of their suppliers.
So you’re saying the restaurant owners should give the suppliers a good tip if they’re polite and efficient? Nuance is hard
Not saying they should more than I’m asking why they shouldn’t
Because being polite and accommodating to people who are being shitty to you isn’t important for those jobs.
Restaurant owners everywhere would be so happy to know you think the customers are the ones fucking over the workers
Do you imagine that the people refusing to pay tips aren’t fucking over the workers, or do you believe that because customers are fucking over workers, the restaurant owners can’t be fucking over the workers too?
It doesn’t matter - either take is transparently stupid.
I believe it is on the owners to provide fair wages to workers. When the plumber, electrician, mechanic, sales rep, or whoever else tells you they don’t make a livable wage, you’re going to feel it is your responsibility to tip them too?
If you don’t want to tip people that can’t otherwise make minimum wage, use restaurants that pay minimum wage. You don’t get to steal those workers’ labour because the restaurateurs and legislators have failed them.
Others industries have to pay minimum wage - your contribution isn’t factored into their base requirements for survival. This is a silly comparison. Do I support an increase in minimum wages? Abso-fucking-lutely - but electricians aren’t routinely being paid less than $3/hr.
You recognize that restauratuers and legislators are the ones failing workers, yet you attribute the lost wages to the paying customer. What can we as paying customers do to fail the workers so that you recognize restauratuers and legislators as being responsible for their fair wages?
are you allergic to believing that two things can be true at once
tipping should be illegal because it leads to underpaid workers. but until tipping becomes illegal, you are a fucking asshole if you don’t tip. you’re not sticking it to the man, you’re just shitting on a minimum wage worker because m-muh principles. grow up or move to a country where they don’t tip
I hate that argument though. “You shouldn’t enjoy things because you should pay more than the advertised, because that’s just how things are”. Change doesn’t happen unless change happens. Basically, if you want tipping culture to change, you actually have to start changing tipping culture.
And you think the best way to do that is by stopping waitresses from being able to feed their kids? Because that’s the only thing that will happen if you don’t tip
Overwhelmingly when polled, waits staff much prefer to keep tipping over a living wage. They make far more from tips. Trust me, me not giving a waitress a tip isn’t the line that keeps he kids from dying of hunger.
You alone won’t, but you would definitely be directly contributing to her being closer to said line
Ultimately, the restaurant industry’s management tier collectively agreeing with wait staff that wait staff doesn’t require a working wage and depending on handouts from customers is a fine solution is the problem.
Quite honestly, that isn’t my problem. I’m there for some food, not to be guilted into running a charity function to make up for greedy management and a staff that prefers this bullshit.
If they had to pay their staff more, prices would be higher. If prices are higher, not as many people can afford to go, resulting in prices going up even more. When waiters can rely on tips instead of just the hourly wage, they are given the chance of getting a really nice tip from someone who is generous, resulting in more money than without the tips. By not tipping, you are relying on the generosity of others to keep the workers you aren’t tipping above the line. If you think they don’t deserve to be tipped, don’t go there, otherwise you’re being a mooch in the society you live in, even if it’s in a minor way.
Sorry, but I pay for the food and if I feel its deserved, the service. Being a mooch would be not paying g for the food.
Do away with tipping and food prices go up by the cost of paying workers a fair wage. To the consumer it ends up being an even trade. Ultimately, the only group getting hurt is the owners.
It works fine in other countries but can’t in the US because…?
Fully agree with this but the problem is that restaurant owners pay their staff shit
Give proper wages to servers and the tipping can be history
MA had a ballot initiative that would have gradually brought the minimum tipped wage in line with the state’s minimum wage over the next 5 years or something.
Restaurants posted signs at their door to vote NO and that 90 percent of tipped workers opposed the bill.
A bartender I know told me that I should vote no because if it passed then restaurants would have to reduce headcount and servers who were bad at their jobs would get paid just as well as servers that offer good service.
So it seems like the restaurants just threatened people with losing their jobs and so they voted NO and convinced others to do the same.
The measure didn’t pass.
servers who were bad at their jobs would get paid just as well as servers that offer good service.
Black servers would be paid as well as white servers, servers whose chefs fucked up would be paid as well as lucky servers, mice would chase cats and the world would turn inside out!
Fuck anon.
Edit: and fuck your downvotes. If you’re not willing to make food yourself then tip your servers.
If you believe no tipping will leave waiters to starve with no money, that’s not true. The very reason they are so severely underpaid is that restaurants know they’ll get their income from tips.
The less tips there are, the more your employer will have to pay you - in a form of salary that is way more predictable and reliable than tips.
Customers, on their end, will know price in the menu is final, and they won’t add crazy extra just so that they won’t feel like worst people on Earth.
In my country, tips do exist, but you are not expected to leave them by default and it’s totally fine and common not to. The result? Waiters get livable wage and can last a month without ever receiving a single tip (which they actually have, too, from time to time).
Pretty sure they’re only guaranteed minimum wage if they don’t receive tips. So yeah if you’re cool with your waiter making $7 per hour instead of $3, don’t tip.
In my country
yeah this is how we know it’s okay to ignore the rest of your comment. really rich of you to preach virtue on the actions of alienated individuals under a system far more oppressive and antagonistic than your own. really makes a powerful argument.
